But relationship-wise, there was the three. But I believe, had I got help after the first, it was almost like patterns, because I believed I wasn’t even though all the things I knew were wrong-ish, I just guessed it was normal as well, like there was nothing better, this was what, this was how it was.

Right.

So I feel that, had I got help from somebody sooner, I could have seen that this was wrong. Because when I got in touch with Women’s Aid and realised just how much I’d actually been through, that was such a shock to me. Because I didn’t know that there was financial abuse, I just thought that was normal, that you had to give your money and things like that because you were living with somebody. There were just so many things I opened my eyes to more that I just thought was normal.

Yeah, so throughout those three relationships you’ve told me about, you felt that what was going on was normal?

Yeah, apart from obviously, like I said, a few things that made me feel like this wasn’t right. But, but no, other than that, that was it.

So you didn’t think about abuse. Had you heard of domestic abuse at that time?

Yeah, but like I said to you, when I got in touch, when the lady said to me, I think you need to speak to Women’s Aid, I thought, But I haven’t been beaten up.

Right yeah.

I’m not a battered woman. I’m not black, I’m not blue. Why would I need to go to Women’s Aid for?

Right OK.

And then when I went there and actually started learning and listening to things, I thought, I can’t believe I’ve been living all these years like this.

And it just took the form of a sort of constant belittling, being ignored, being in bad moods with me, criticising me all the time. It was just a sort of constant, low level campaign. It felt like a campaign, yeah.

It felt like a campaign, right, a campaign yes. So how many years had you been in that relationship?

Oh we were together 22 years.

22 years, OK. And was it something that you were aware of quite early on or was it more that it developed over time?

Well, it becomes-. The thing about it was that we started going out together when we were both in our early 20s and it was almost like I was sort of putty, if you like, and he convinced me from the word go that I was all wrong. I mean I had bad experiences of sexual violence and I had physical problems caused by taking the pill, which made, which had an effect on our sex life.

Right.

And it was just from almost just months after we started going out together I was just being told I was inadequate, I was an inadequate sexual partner. Constant arguments right from, like I say, almost the very beginning. And I, for most of the time we were together, I thought he was right. I thought he was. I thought I was damaged goods.

And it was only a few years before we broke up that I saw a programme about domestic violence on TV, and phoned the number they gave at the end. And I said, Oh I don’t know what I’m supposed to, what I’m going to be, I don’t know what I’m phoning you for, because my partner doesn’t hit me or anything, but he’s just so horrible to me all the time. And the, the man on the helpline, he talked to me for ages and was really helpful. And he said, You are suffering domestic violence. And it was only then that I realised really.

Yeah.

By that time I was a wreck.

A wreck?

Well, it had been 20 years of just constant battles. So I had chronic fatigue syndrome.

Right.

Lots of digestive problems, what I now recognise as being PTSD and things like that.

I mean I almost lost my mum because of him worming his way in-between me and her.

What did he do?

Oh he was telling me all sorts of things about her, how, how much she mollycoddled me, how controlling she was of me, how manipulative she was of me, how it was her fault that we couldn’st go and live anywhere else. And why couldn’st I see that she was just trying to control my life and she would never really let me grow up and never really let me be free? And you know, and my mum’s, she’s a very Mumsie mum don’t mean that, that sounds awful. She’s a very loving, quite protective mum. She does do the whole, Oh come to me, sweetheart, you know, it’s been really rough. Which can be irritating. But equally, she’s my mum.

Yeah.

You know, she loves me. She’s she wasn’st being all of those things, but he managed to twist it in such a way that I believed him. You know, My God, he’s right. You know, I’m a mother now, I’m the grown-up. I shouldn’st be going to her for advice. I shouldn’st be talking to her about things. I wasn’st allowed to talk to anybody about anything. I only should only need him; he was enough. And I shouldn’st need to talk to my mum. And we did, you know, she thought she had lost me. She thought that we were this cosy little clan of two and she wasn’st allowed in.

And did that continue for years or?

That was probably yeah, probably about four or five years.

Yeah.

I can’t even remember, we had a long conversation, I have a vague memory of walking round a big lake in [Country] with her, having it all out and telling her that I was cross. And there were things I was cross with her for. But actually, when we talked about it, I think I realised, Actually I’m not as cross as I thought I was. Actually you haven’st really done anything wrong and I’m not quite sure why I’m this cross.

It started little by little, and one time he told me that he had spinal tumour. And I believed that but after years I found out he’d never had any spinal tumour.

Why do you think he said that?

To control my feelings, I don’t know. To make me, oh, because we had started to have arguments. The arguments were on untruthfulness or on small things

Right.

and he would just defend himself a lot, and I think one time I just wanted to leave and he said, Well, you don’t know everything and, you know, I have spinal tumour and I wouldn’t tell you that. And I felt really sorry for him. And I thought I had to be more careful and, it was really, I felt bad. Over the years, it’s kind of, again, I just saw a letter, he was checked for that, but they didn’t find anything.

Right.

And he knew already about it.

Right.

that he didn’t have anything.

Had you spoken or revealed to any family and friends before that time about what was happening in your relationship?

Not really, no. I knew they couldn’t help because none of them had a, he didn’t have a positive relationship with any of them. I think I was trying to shield the reality of what was happening. It wasn’t till I gave up that I was willing to let everyone else know.

Yeah.

I was trying so hard to fix it and I didn’t want, I thought, I knew that if they knew, how that would change how they treated him and how they behaved towards him. And I wanted to have, I wanted it to succeed and I didn’t want to make it worse. Because everything made him angry and I didn’t want to make him even more angry by telling them stuff which was going to make him angry, which wasn’t going to help. So yeah I did, I did keep it all in pretty much until I asked him to go. My sister then asked me to write down about his abuse. And that turned out to be a really big ask. I couldn’t work out how to structure it or [laughs] present it. So I broke it down into the four categories of sexual abuse, emotional/physical abuse, oh sorry, emotional/verbal abuse, physical abuse, psychological abuse, financial abuse. It was like all these little headings. And then I just started writing, trying to stick at least under the categories. And it ran to over 10,000 words. It just was so much. When I started looking at it, it was unbelievable amounts of stuff, the daily stuff, the big stuff, the big blow ups, the repetitiveness, his beliefs, his attitudes, his it just amounted to so much. And when I looked at it all when I’d done it, I could not believe that actually I’d had so much to say when I’d sat down and analysed it properly.

So, as I said, until I left I sort of realised what had been going on with the money. Didn’st click that he was having all the brand new games that were going out and, you know, he had subscribed to all these different things and stuff. That obviously he had to pay for but, you know, it was quite an eye opener.

And at the time, how did it feel for him to have control of all the, all of the money, how did you feel about that?

I just thought he was taking care of, you know, of the household bills and stuff

Yeah.

and he was, yeah, I didn’t, didn’t think anything of it really. I just thought he was doing everything, as I say, everything he did was for my benefit.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And he to well, so I didn’t have to help me, like, you know.

For you?

Yeah.

And just thinking as well the way you kind of, during the relationship you kind of lost your, some of your friendships and

Yeah.

your relationships with family members as well, I mean, when you were together, how did that feel kind of losing those relationships?

At the time, I mean, it, well I must admit at the time it didn’t feel bad because I did actually believe him that it was for the good, you know [strange noises] that they were a negative part of my life and they shouldn’st be in my life. Because that’s how they made me feel. So, yeah, at, at the time it was fine, you know. I sort of became reliant on what he told me. And trusted everything he said like.

And the sort of deciding moment was when he hit our son over a, over cleaning his teeth one evening. I wasn’t very well and his father was supervising him to clean his teeth. Both of the children always wanted me to be there, whatever was happening. They were already quite unhappy to be alone with maybe not clear cut to be alone with their father, just always wanted to be with me, always wanted their mummy to do everything, which didn’t help the dynamic at home, because that made him angry. So his father was supervising the teeth cleaning, my son was 4 and not cooperating particularly well, and very abruptly, without warning he was hit on the head so hard that he flew across the room off the floor. And I think that, that was the, that was the turning point. And from that moment forward I wasn’t in a, you know, Is this a you know, what’s going on here? It was a Right, we’ve got to fix this

Right.

..approach. It didn’t occur to me to leave. And I look back now and I don’t know why. It did occur to me to report it to the police or to Social Services, but I was seeing a therapist at the time who advised me not to.

Right OK.

Which I now understand, having described [laughs] described the incident to him, he had a duty of care to us which I think he failed, in that it absolutely should have been, his advice should have been to report it, and in fact he probably should have reported it himself. And I think the fact that he didn’t react like, Oh my goodness, you know, this is not OK and we really ought to do something about this, it kept me there.

Well he wouldn’t I wasn’t it got to the point where I basically wasn’t allowed out the house, apart from to take [Daughter] to playgroup. I wasn’t allowed out the house. I wasn’t allowed to travel on my own. I wasn’t allowed phone calls. I was being monitored all the time. That was the other thing he did: I was being monitored all the time. So even when he wasn’t in the house, he’d ring me about every 20 minutes and check what I was doing. And if he rang and he couldn’t get through, then he’d question, you know, question me about who I was talking to, why I was on the phone to them for so long, what was I talking about, why was I talking to them?

So I was constantly being monitored all the time, what I did, where I went. I didn’t go anywhere. I wasn’t allowed anywhere, apart from just to playgroup.

Yeah.

I even had the shopping delivered. So you can’t have it’s like you’re completely shut down and you’re just focused on them all the time. And the impact is just horrendous.

I mean were there times when you were like, Oh, I just want to pop to so and so by myself, and how would he react, would he say no, would he?

He’d make sure it didn’t happen.

So he’d actually

Or he’d make sure that I had children with him or I was chaperoned some way. I was never anywhere on my own. If was having if I had a you know, if I was on the phone to anybody, he’d come and stand in the room.

And how did that feel for him to be you know, you said you’d try to make a phone call and?

Oh it was horrible.

Yeah.

It was horrible. It was like being in prison.

So what happened next?

Yeah, so I got at that point, I was [pause] sorry, it’s such a big since, long time since I’ll try and, I basically, I got talking to one of the mums at the school, and she kind of said, Oh, where’s your other half? and we look like a perfect family, and I said, We’re so not. We’re like appearances deceive. Anyway, this friend put me into contact with [name], that you know.

Right.

And she said, Oh I know a lady that works at the refuge, and I was like and I thought that was like, not overly religious, but I thought that was like oh my God, there’s someone, you know, looking over me.

Right.

Because it was just like wow, and I was like, Oh wow, you know a lady that works in a refuge.

Yes.

You know, because it was very, it’s quite, it’s unknown to, you know, it’s a bit scary, the refuge.

Yeah. Yes.

Even the word refuge is like

Yes.

you know, scary. Anyway, so this friend put me into contact with [name] and I think, as I started talking to this friend, there was an incident with him and then I was texting her, and then my, my friend texted me back, just like a long text of support but now looking back, it was definitely [name], because I know [name].

Oh right.

Telling her what to write to me, to like

Right.

You don’t need to put up with that, and you know.

Yes.

and [name] put me into contact with the local domestic violence agency again but it was a different team because I lived in a different borough than before.

Right.

Her name was [name] and she was an angel.

When I was going to that school on everyday basis I have a neighbour, she’s Irish

Uh-huh.

she live few houses away from me she work in the council. She asked me many times, ‘Let’s go for a pizza’, because her children and my children are in similar classes and similar years.

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

‘Let’s go out, have cup of tea. Let’s go library, there is a reading challenge, there’s this challenge.’

Yes, yeah.

‘Or your my son have very wonky hair, teeth’

Yes.

and she always, ‘Oh you should go to dentist.’

Yes.

Oh I said to her ‘I’m not even registered at a dentist.’ And she always says ‘hello’ and ‘hi’. And when I went home and I realised nobody can help me, she asked me, ‘What’s wrong? Surely something is wrong?’

And then she started coming to my house my husband didn’t like it, he accuses me, ‘oh you want to have life like white people, miniskirts, boyfriends’ and this and that. So he didn’t say anything to her, but surely she can sense he is not happy meet with it. She gave me one stop shop card.

Oh right.

She hugged me.

Right.

Because my husband, he was on the road in that car slowly

Right.

watching.

Yes.

She slipped that card and she asked me, ‘Can you read this card?’, and ‘Please tear the card and flush it.’ Because she knew that that she never knew when he was living with me or not, because he was under the mosque command not to visit me in home.

Right, yeah. Had she been through something herself, is that why she knew?

Yeah, but she works in like social services.

Right, yes.

She gave me the card. ‘The card doesn’t say anything, it’s just says One Stop Shop’ and then underneath it says ‘Domestic violence free helpline’ and this and that.

Right.

I start calling them. I explain my situation. They can pretty much make me like pack up my dresses, pack up your children things, pack up something which you can’t leave.

You have a fear when you’sre a mum that they are professionals who could take your child, who are the most precious things to you in the world. I’m not going to risk that. And there’s a, a load of mums out there that feel exactly the same. So, no. And I’ve also had to learn the hard way by being open and honest about the past, the domestic abuse side that it can be a preventive tool for getting your other children recognising that they’ve got conditions, getting that recognised because it’s easy to blame the domestic abuse. So where people paediatricians and CAMHS are all happy to jump on, oh it’s domestic abuse, not one of them have done a session with my children on domestic abuse. No-one’s talked to my children. But it is easy to be blamed.

So are they knew, are they still involved in, with your son, the CAMHS?

No, CAMHS aren’st involved anymore. No. He’s been through that process and yeah, no. Not with them now.

So they’re not

But the whole time we were, we were with them for about a year and they didn’t approach that subject once.

So your feeling is actually how professionals aren’st the right people because of perhaps the fear that it, it is .

It is that fear of

a child being taken away.

you need to eliminate that fear, yeah.

I think the police could have done more earlier. They never told me about refuges.

They, they didn’t say

They didn’t .

they were, they came out to you

They didn’t tell me there was routes out. I only got, I had a leaflet when I went to the solicitor for the injunction he gave me a load of handouts and one of those was refuge and that’s how I got to know that they even existed. There wasn’st the Internet at that point, like there was now either, so police didn’t, they made me fearful that they’d take the children.

Yeah.

Which made me not feel that I couldn’st approach them again.

Yeah.

So, yes, it’s blame, that you know, you could say there are children here but explain

Yeah.

it could have an effect, on, you know,

Yeah, so perhaps they could have had an additional role to play though in the time you were seeing

Yeah. They could have even said there were ways out, he wouldn’st know where I was

Yeah.

to be told that might have been a relief, finding out that years earlier. But, yeah, no, they didn’t say anything. In, in fact they brought him back home but, yeah, no, there was nothing.

No support offered?

No.

For you.

No.

But it destroys your sense of trust. It has destroyed my sense of trust. And I think in some ways one of the things that I found most shocking is how acceptable this sort of behaviour is, how acceptable domestic violence is in our culture. And we don’t like to say this, but it is actually pretty acceptable.

What’s, what’s making you think that, feel that the most?

Because you realise it’s very common. I don’t think what happened to me is particularly unusual. I think it’s very common, you know, across the board. I think that there is the attitude that you should learn to put up with it, particularly if it’s not, if there’s not a lot of physical violence, that you should be containing it in the home and trying to make as best job of it as you possibly can. There’s a huge, a huge influence in the family courts about, the family courts, because he went for contact of course. And of course he went for contact, and I was being pressurised into going back, basically going back into a relationship with him again. I have to accept him, I was told at one point by CAFCASS, You have to accept him as being part of your life. And luckily, because I’m quite bright and quite well educated and I had quite a good solicitor as well, I was able to turn around and say, Human Rights Act. Fuck off. Can’st do that. But a lot of women get bullied into that.

And I was being sold this thing that I’ve got to have him in my life, I’ve got to accept him in my life, in my house, in my home. You know, and I was basically, by that stage I sort of basically had got to, you know, You’sre fucking kidding aren’st you? You really are kidding that I’m going to have this man in my house. And you are the state telling me I’ve got to like being treated like that. And what century are we in? You know, and that, and when this sort of started to hit me, how you’sre coerced and bullied and pressurised into liking, sorry, liking [voice falters] these sorts of men XXXX you’ve got to be, you know, this is, sorry, I’m so sorry [crying and angry].

I found that I’ve, that, when I did go to the doctor when I was beaten up by my first partner when I came back to England, I went to the doctor’s then, because obviously a had a, my hand got bitten then and I don’t think the doctor knew how to help me. Because I do come across as a woman that’s very well-together, if that makes sense.

Out, if you’re looking at outer appearance it’s hard to explain what going on internally and if I didn’t know how to explain that I don’t think I would be able to get any help.

So despite all the terrible things that you’ve described to me that happened, you always felt able to present in a positive way like you say, you look up – together?

Yeah. Yeah, that’s one thing my mum’s taught me. You, no matter what’s going on behind closed doors, you put your clothes on and you put that mask on and you walk with your head held high. And that’s what I’ve done for most of my life, even when I’m in turmoil internally. I walk with my head held high, even if I’m screaming in, inside. Yeah.

And has that strategy been a good one for you?

I think it’s kept me here. Somehow. It’s kept me here somehow because I know that there’s a fight inside, I know there’s a fight, that I do have this fight [fire alarm].

I’m hoping that’s just a test.

OK.

I think if it’s real it’ll go on.

OK.

So we’ll assume it’s just a test [laughs]

OK. But I think if I’d looked a certain way, I think they would have understood it a bit more.

They, being?

Professionals. If I’d came in to the doctor as, while I didn’t feel like combing my hair and I didn’t comb my hair and I didn’t want to change my clothes and I didn’t change my clothes, I think they would understand it. But because I would do these things. Even if I didn’t have a shower I would still present myself in a way that probably was a bit confusing to professionals.

I think there’s so many stereotypes…

Right yes.

… around domestic abuse about what a victim is and what a perpetrator is.

Right.

I wouldn’st say… I mean I’m probably a good example of why you shouldn’t stereotype about what a victim is because I’m confident and successful and I’ve come out the other end and I’m married and happy and I have a career and everything. It’s not what people would automatically think and I do find that actually because I’m quite open about it so when I tell people, people are really, genuinely surprised. Just like how, how could you have gone through that, it doesn’t, doesn’t make any sense. But it can happen to anyone and I think people need to understand that.

Yes.

And also knowing the signs, I think is important this is less health care but the police I think they could probably do with being better trained. So I mean for example if they go to a domestic, domestic dispute…

Yes.

… and they arrive and there’s a women there going absolutely crazy and the man’s there shrugging his shoulders then they need to be able to look a bit deeper at what’s actually going on there.

Yeah.

because it’s very easy just to go well clearly she’s the problem but it’s, it’s not necessarily, it’s probably not the case.

Yeah.

But I don’t think the police are trained in that way. With healthcare professionals I guess, I guess all they can do is pick up patterns isn’t it? Like if people keep returning.

Yeah, yeah.

Make sure that they are able to ask whoever it is that’s injured; ask them what’s happened whilst they’re on their own as well, while their partner’s out of the room.

Yeah, yeah that’s a good point.

But yeah it’s difficult to say. Just it needs time as well which is the problem, I think, people don’t have the time.