But now I’m, I’m now in a different kind of as I said loneliness cos now I’m, as I said I’m forty, I’m forty three now, and my kids are getting older, and because of everything that’s happened before, and because I don’t trust people, because of what’s happened before, I’ve, I’ve done it again in a way. I, I’ve self-isolated myself to be lonely in a different sense. Cos then I don’t mind being on my own, I have no issues with being alone, it’s more that connection to someone to be able to, I dunno, bounce ideas off, make sure that you’re doing the right thing, have someone say, “You’re okay”.

I: What do you think makes you feel lonely?

My own head, I think. I think you do; in a way you can do it to yourself. It, it’s tracked behaviour as well, it’s, you get into a pattern where you feel comfortable and safe, and then you don’t get out of it. Obviously while I was dealing with all of the fallout from my divorce I didn’t, I didn’t go out, and I didn’t do stuff, so you get into a pattern that’s comfortable. It’s like like a routine of how you get through your day, and it’s very reassuring and to deviate from that it worries me. So, if I do the same routine, but if you keep doing that, and nothing changes in that, then a different form of loneliness comes in because you isolate yourself in just doing the same thing over and over again. And it’s like learned behaviour. So it’s very hard to change that behaviour and, open up to the possibility of something else. So, it takes somebody else to trigger that change but you have to let that other person in to, in order to trigger the change. It’s difficult.

I’m used to it. I wouldn’t say I’m comfortable in it, I think it’s, it’s, it’s like just something that’s always there. It’s reliable. I think I know where I stand when I’m lonely. It’s not something that’ll ever desert me, it’s not something that’s ever gonna disappear, it’s always going to be there because of everything that’s happened, and you kind of trust it because it is always there, and you kind of know what to expect from it. But every now and then you want to change it, and you want something different. But yeah it’s, it’s comfortable, [um] I’m, I wouldn’t say it’s an issue any more in the sense of it’s not the worst thing that’s going on in my life, being lonely.

I: Talk to me a little bit about the relationship that you talked about between loneliness and depression.

I think they go hand in hand in some ways.

I: Mm. How so?

I don’t think I’ve met anyone who’s, who hasn’t suffered loneliness and not been depressed about it or gone away with the scars of depression. Depression is evil in the sense that it can make you loneliness feel ten times worse. And it can warp it, but yeah I don’t think, I don’t think you can have one without the other really.

I think social media is one of the fast track ways to make you feel more lonely than anything else at the moment. Because it’s just, it’s just, it’s like, it isolates you in the sense that you just stare at a phone, or a tablet, or a screen. You’re not interacting with people in the same way as if you’re sat in a room with them, there’s no warmth to it, it’s very cold and clinical. And it’s spiteful and it can be very nasty, and damaging to your self-worth and your self-belief and I’m one of those people who believes that children should be off social media till they’re 16, they shouldn’t have access to it because it does so much damage. But we live in an age where you cannot get away from it and you cannot protect them from that. But half, I think, people’s self-worth and self-image would be so much better if social media wasn’t as in your face as it is nowadays. But I think it contributes to loneliness, I think it isolates people. I think people feel more alone because even though there’s so many people out there, all talking to each other, none of it’s real. You don’t, you can’t trust it. You don’t know if the person talking to you is being real with you. So it’s, it’s just, it just, it’s lonely in itself, it’s a lonely existence social media.

I:        [Um] In an ideal world where you’re the puppet master how would you help people deal with loneliness? How, what services would be available? What kind of support would be available?

I think more, more, more groups where you can go and talk, and there’s no pressure, it’s not classed as therapy. I think, I think there’s still stigma attached to, “Oh you’re going to therapy.” You get, you know you need that help. I don’t think it’s necessarily that you need help, I think it’s just you need to talk. Like writing it out on paper, you just, just groups of people just talking to each other and sharing experiences. If you could provide that and make it more accessible to everyone, it would be better. It’s not so much that you need to have one on one therapy with someone to deal with loneliness, it’s, it’s finding that connection with people who have similar experiences, to make them know that they will get through it, they will be okay, and that other people feel it too. [Um] So I think some kind of support, not, I don’t want to say support group cos I don’t, I don’t, it is support but it’s not support. It’s more an understanding group.

It would be better. It’s not so much that you need to have one on one therapy with someone to deal with loneliness, it’s, it’s finding that connection with people who have similar experiences, to make them know that they will get through it, they will be okay, and that other people feel it too. So I think some kind of support, not, I don’t want to say support group cos I don’t, I don’t, it is support but it’s not support. It’s more an understanding group.

I: You talked about a training group that you joined, so that kind of helped you socialise?

Yeah, it was really good. Very, very difficult to join cos I was very anxious but yeah, just threw myself into it and did it.

I: Did you kind of have to step outside your comfort zone to do that?

Oh yes I’ve never been a massive fan of exercise in the sense of groups and going to the gyms and things like that so to join a group of people doing squats and sit ups and running around the hall, was daunting to say the least, and this was walking into a big sports hall with about 150 people in it, of all different shapes and sizes, and ages, all running around sweating. It was daunting, exhilarating and scary, all of the above, but it was one of the best decisions I made.

I: How did you make that decision?

I kind of gave myself a kick up the bum, I’d had a really bad depressive spiral if you like,] and I was trying to figure a way to pull myself out of it that was different to everything else that I’d tried. I didn’t want to go on anti-depressants again, I wanted to do something different that lifted my mood, and I needed to get out of the house because I realised my kids were growing up and I had no social life whatsoever and I was like, oh God that’s scary. That you, you don’t do anything, what are your hobbies, what do you like to do? And I was thinking I don’t know; I don’t know what I like to do. I’ve been spending so much time raising the kids, that I was like what do I want to do? So I thought this sort of gives me an option to just see what it’s like, so my friend who I worked with was already a member and she said, “Come along, see what you think,” and I went along and that was it, I loved it. Sort of went to sweat fest on a Tuesday night and circuits on a Friday, and Sunday morning club and then I started the Run Club, and that was it. Just it was, it was really good, and then obviously lockdown happened and we couldn’t do classes and I’m not one for running around in the park, being yelled out to do squats, so I didn’t do those classes. So I ended up running every day and running sort of took over, and that was my get-out of my head sort of thing and get out of the house.

I: And, and that has helped.

Running has been amazing. I’m not the best runner in the world. I did the couch to 5K and when I completed that I kept running, I, I’ve done 5K’s, 10K’s that kind of thing. But I can’t think when I’m running because the only thing I’m concentrating on is breathing. So, so it’s a great way to clear your head,  and just get you out of yourself, so to go running for half an hour was a godsend, cos it just took you away from your life, and just let you, you just ran and listened to music and just, just ran. Just went where your feet took you. It, it’s just such a nice experience to just not be in control, but you are in control. You, if you get me?

I: Yeah absolutely.

I: Do, do you write?

Yeah I, I do journals, a journal every day now. But yeah one of the, the drama therapist actually said to me you, even if you never tell anybody else, if you just get it out on paper it’ll help. And it’s a good way to, to monitor how your moods are going and how you track your life, cos you can see monthly if there’s like a, and up and down period when you know you’re gonna you know hit that lonely spot and you feel really bad. So yeah, I do, I would recommend writing how you feel.

I: So how does it work? Do you, do you write every day, do you have a specific time to do it?

Usually just before bed, I’ll get into bed and I’ll just sit there and have a think about how I’m feeling, and what the day’s gone, and then I’ll just write, it doesn’t have to be long, it could be a couple of sentences, it could be a whole page, it could be anything. It’s just how you’re feeling, you just work it out, and it does feel better when it’s on the page, and reading it back is always hilarious. It does make you think, oh I need a bit of perspective in my life. What, why was I moaning about that on that day, that’s such a silly thing to moan about. Or, yeah, I could really understand why that was upsetting. It, it gives you that clarity to just rethink it in a different way. So, it is good in the sense that you’ve got that  data to look back on and analyse it, just like you do with any research really. It’s just, once it’s written you, you, to get rid of it would be silly, because it’s not going to be productive to help you going forward if you get rid of it, so I just think if you journal it, it’s helpful. And then if anybody else came across it, God forbid anything happened, they might understand me a bit better.

I:        Have you tried to communicate those to anybody?

R:       [Um] I have, I have said, a couple of my friends have read journals from me in the past and they’ve, they’ve got it, they’ve understood a bit better and they know phrases like chin-up,  or just do some exercise and things like that, don’t help. [Um] You know when you, when you’re feeling low and your depressed and someone says to you “Chin-up,” the last thing you feel like doing is sticking your chin up, you just,

I:        Yeah.

R:       You know you just want to hide away, and it, it also helps if, if you are in that moment where you feel so low and you’re, you’re hiding away, and then you write it out and then the next day you still feel bad but you re-read it, it sort of gives you that momentum to pull yourself out of it.

I: Mm. What, what do you think makes it worse? What do you think makes loneliness worse?

R: I think lack of realising that loneliness is so destructive, I don’t think people realise that, it’s like there’s a lot of emphasis on elderly people, being lonely, and I, I can see that because the thought of not talking to someone, just is horrifying, you know,

I: Absolutely.

R: Yeah, and I think a lot of people think it’s just, just the elderly that suffer from it, but it’s not. It’s, someone who can seem like the most bubbliest person in the world can be also the loneliest person in the world. I think people stereotype people into categories too easily,

I: Mm.

R: And I think that’s detrimental to anyone’s mental health in whatever they’re going through. People just go, “Oh, loneliness, you just need a fellow,” or “Loneliness, oh get a dog,” or, it’s just people minimalise it so that it’s, loneliness leads to so much more than just being lonely. It can lead to depression, it can lead to anxiety, it can lead to isolation. It can lead to all sorts of things that people don’t necessarily think would start from loneliness. And that’s sad really.